Turban Campaign

Transcript

Satnam Rana (host):

Now he’s often refereed by the EDL as the acceptable Asian face of the organisation. But how accepted is he elsewhere. Well this week on BBC WM our special correspondent, Steve Dyson has interviewed the spokesperson for the EDL in the West Midlands – his name is Guramit Singh, and they spoke about a number of issues including how he feels about the Sikh faith. Guramit Singh is a leading member of the EDL and helped organise recent protests in Dudley and in Birmingham. BBC WM Steve Dyson asked him if he feels that he’s turning his back on the Sikh religion.

Guramit Singh (recording):

At the end of the day I’m not representing the Sikh culture – the religion. I haven’t got the right to. The only entity, the only Guru, we have a Guru that represents the Sikh faith and that’s Guru Granth Sahib okay. I don’t represent Sikhs, I don’t represent Hindus, Christians, Catholics, Muslims – I don’t represent anybody apart from people who are sincere to our cause. The members of the English Defence League, we represent them and that’s all him here to do.

Steve Dyson (recording):

The call to excommunicate you – wherever that’s gone, but that call was backed by six leading Gurdwara’s in Birmingham and Black country, including Guru Nanak Nishkam Sevak Jatha run by Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh, one of the most senior Sikh figures outside of India. Does his signature, does the feeling of those six Gurdwara’s about what you said, does that not make you challenge yourself about what you said?

Guramit Singh (recording):

No it doesn’t. Because at the end of the day their signatures are on that statement through lies that they’ve been given. They’ve been told that we’re anti-semitic, racists, we’re Nazi’s, we’re this that, we’re separating the Asian community, they’ve been given lie after lie after lie after lie. The whole application is a farce. It doesn’t bother me in any single way. At the end of the day to be excommunicated from the Sikh religion you’ve got to be baptised Sikh for a start – which I’m not. It’s definitely a way I’m heading towards for the future. I can see in the next five years me straying that way because once thing the English Defence League made me do, its made me research my own religion a lot more. Because, I can’t just go out there and study Islam and not even study my own religion. I study my own religion first, and its definitely bringing me towards that way but right now I’m not. But, its a farce of an application – I don’t think about it, I don’t want to spend any time even talking about it to tell you the truth because I don’t think it deserves it.

I mean, I found out about this, I think it was the end of March I found out about it, actually probably middle of March sort of time. When I found out about it, it was a day I got a phone call. Because, obviously being a spokesperson a lot of press contacts have my phone number. I have there phone numbers as well. We talk on a regular basis and first I got a call from BBC Asia, she rung me up and said “what do you think of this excommunication application against you?” and I said “what are you talking about?”. She explained to me and I was like, well I don’t know anything about it. And I was actually out working at the time so I wasn’t near a computer, I was trying to get Google up on my phone and here I’m getting a bit worried. And then all of a sudden I get Asian Today – the internet newspaper ring me up and say “what do you this of this?” and I thought “where have you got this from?” and they said “well, we’ve just received a fax, phone calls, e-mails from Turban Campaign”. So basically, what they’ve done is a PR stunt.

They’ve gone to the press first before they’ve gone to me and now if they want to issue me with an application, well come to me and issue it to me”.

Satnam Rana (host):

Guramit Singh there speaking to BBC WM Steve Dyson earlier last week. So what is excommunication? Can you be excommunicated from the Sikh religion or indeed any of the religions that people follow? Who actually decides if you’re if a person isn’t allowed to be part of a religion? We’re going to discuss this further now and joining me on the telephone is Professor Gurharpal Singh from the University of Birmingham and also Balwinder Singh Rana who’s not related to me by the way and he’s part of the campaign group – Sikhs Against the E.D.L.

Very good evening to both of you guys. Hello, Hi, thank you for joining us. Let me start with you first of all Gurharpal. In your capacity as an academic, what is the definition of excommunication?

Professor Gurharpal Singh (Birmingham University):

Well, in a kind of straight forward way, its an approach which many religions take to debar or at discipline members of their community from being part of that tradition or at least being associated with it publicly. At the highest level its disownment but its within a sort of grades of it, it can be a form of punishment.

Satnam Rana (host):

Can you actually be excommunicated from, for example the Sikh religion in this case?

Professor Gurharpal Singh (Birmingham University):

Well, you can in a sense, I mean the Sikh code of conduct has lots of prescriptions within it of what to do and of what not to do. And, in a very simple sort of way, you know if you breech those prescriptions you can be disowned within the Sikh community. But having said that, excommunication within the Sikh community is very rare or very rarely exercised. It has become prominent or politicized in the past twenty or thirty years because of the events in Punjab. But, historically excommunication has been quite rare.

Satnam Rana (host):

Its quite interesting what Guramit had to say in that short clip that we heard of his half an hour chat with Steve Dyson. And he actually said that “well actually, I can’t be excommunicated because I’m not a you know – Amritshak Sikh, not an initiated Sikh”. Does he have a point there or can you?

Professor Gurharpal Singh (Birmingham University):

He does have a point in a sense that you know some of these scriptures in the Sikh code of conduct apply to the baptised Sikhs. However, there is also a broader recognition that the Sikh community is much greater than just the baptised community. I mean it all relates to a definition of “who is a Sikh?”. Most religions, the orthodox or baptised are a very small section, the vast majority of Sikhs are not baptised. And so, the process of excommunication in this instance or in this case would relate to social ostracization or disassociation.

So, if somebody is bringing as this is the case disrepute on the Sikh community or he seems to be bringing disrepute on the Sikh community – a literal interpretation of the code of the conduct would I fear will not hold. I think that’s rather simplistic of Guramit Singh

Satnam Rana (host):

Okay let me bring Balwinder Singh Rana into the conversation, Balwinder is a part of the campaign group ‘Sikhs Against the EDL’. To what extent are you making effective moves to get Guramit Singh kicked out of the Sikh faith?

Balwinder Singh Rana:

Well first of all, its the first time I’ve heard him say that he does not represent the Sikhs and that he’s not a baptised Sikh. But he used to carry the Sikh flag on the marches and he used the Sikh insignia in his propaganda, he also on more than one occasion said that he was representing the Sikhs. And he also has told many lies, he quoted the Sikh scriptures in support of his speeches and he has told many lies. For example once, in the BBC Asian network documentary “Who’s Afraid of the EDL?” and this is what he said: “Sikhs have been trying to protect the world from Islam for 300-400 years”. I mean that’s him making a claim on behalf of Sikhs which is a complete lie.

Now he also said that he wants to learn more about Sikhism. I would request him to learn that first of all the foundation stone of the Golden Temple which is the holiest shrine of the Sikhs was laid by a Muslim saint and the land on which the Golden Temple is built was granted by a Muslim emperor. Also, in our Sikh scriptures, Guru Granth Sahib there are many verses written by Muslim saints. Also, he claims Sikhs have been fighting against Islam – but the Sikh Gurus who fought, they did not fight against Islam. They made it very clear that they were fighting against some oppressive Mughal Emperors who happened to be Muslims.

In fact, Guru Gobind Singh ji, the 10th Guru he said in Akal Ustat, which I’m sure a lot of Sikhs would know, the writing by Guru Gobind Singh ji, he said: “Someone calls himself a Hindu, another a Turk, someone a Shia, another a Sunni | Recognise the whole of humanity as one race | The Hindu god and the Muslim god are the same | Let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference |“. So, whatever he (Guramit Singh) is saying is totally opposite to what our Gurus have taught us.

Satnam Rana (host):

To what extent then therefore is he actually out there not just creating bad PR for the wider British Asian community but also for the Sikh community then?

Balwinder Singh Rana:

I think he’s brought our whole community into disrepute. He’s shamed us and he’s making these claims. That is the reason why we issued him an ultimatum saying that if he does not renounce the EDL we shall make an application to the Sri Akal Takht Sahib in Amritsar. He rejected our ultimatum and since then we have been building a very comprehensive and thorough document with a lot of details, detailing all the evidence against him.

Satnam Rana (host):

There is this this sort of definition he uses, I mean as you said its the first time you’ve heard him say he’s not a you know initiated Sikh. Can even the Akal Takht which just to explain to everyone is sort of the political powerhouse isn’t it, which makes decisions on Sikh issues, in Amritsar. Can they actually make that decision for someone who essentially isn’t a baptised Sikh and might define himself as a cultural Sikh perhaps?”

Balwinder Singh Rana:

I don’t know about that, I think Professor Sahib, he’s a much wiser person than me. I think I agree with him that its not just the excommunication. I think the word itself has a sort of Christian connotation its more like ostracize or being shunned by our community. Even like your idea, which is that its not just Sikhs, I think the whole Asian community should shun him – that is more important for us.

But, I just want to make one point clear that it has been asked by some people – we are gathering all the evidence and we have consulted a lot of people in the community. However, some people approached us some time ago, they wanted to act as intermediaries. They told us that Guramit’s immediate family has been under a lot of stress, especially his grand mother. In fact, he has claimed that publicly as well. They request us that we should hold on to our application and they also said that they will try to get him to withdraw or at least get him to stop representing the Sikhs.

Satnam Rana (host):

Would that be enough for you?

Balwinder Singh Rana:

We are against the EDL as a whole, right. We would oppose the EDL whether there is any Sikh in there or not. And if he (Guramit Singh) stops representing the Sikhs, if he stops carrying the Sikh flag on the marches, if he stops using the Sikh insignia in his propaganda, if he stops claiming to represent the Sikhs – if he just acts like any ordinary EDL member, we will still oppose him but we will oppose him just like an EDL member. And, we will try to get him basically ostracized by the whole Asian community. Because we have to understand that the EDL is a racist fascist party. At the moment they are saying they are against Muslims only. But we know that they are just using them as a scapegoat and its just a divide and rule tactic. We are not stupid, we know today its the Muslims and tomorrow it will be all of us.

We have a very proud history and relation, especially Sikhs for everyone – Hindus and Muslims. In the ’70s. ’80s, ’90s we when there used to be first National Front, then the BNP – were all united. Every time – places like Southall, in Gravesend, in Birmingham, Coventry – everywhere whenever the racists fascists tried to divide our communities, they came and attacked our communities we were all one.

Satnam Rana (host):

This is interesting then, maybe Gurharpal Singh if you can come into this with your background looking at British Asian communities and the cultural side of it. I mean, to what extent can the British Asian communities come together and unite? Because now more than ever, they’re very disperate groups. If we’re really honest, its not like my parents generation when there was unity in opposition against the National Front and then the BNP. Now, the second, third and fourth generation are very much entrenched in their individual cultural identities.

Professor Gurharpal Singh (Birmingham University):

Yes, that’s a very good point. What has happened is that there has been a steep change from the 1960′s when you had the Indian Workers Association – classed based organisations fighting racism to the 21st century when they all fragmented in their own little identity groups based often around religious identities. And, only last year I did a short report on Sikh-Muslims tensions for Faith-Matters which argued the same point, essentially there’s a lot on common amongst the culture and tradition of British Sikhs and British Muslims. And that we need to rediscover common shared spaces and common shared history’s in order to combat the wider issue of the emergence of society based racism. In a sense we can’t go back to the class formation of the ’60s but we can highlight the kind of points that the other speaker’s mentioned – namely that our traditions should not be used, whether its Islam, Sikhism or Christianity for very distorted political objectives.

Satnam Rana (host):

I’m absolutely sure we can sit here and discuss this for ages and that’s a very interesting thought to send out to our listeners who are tuning in tonight. My final word goes to Balwinder Singh Rana – how far away are then are you for excommunicating Guramit Singh?

Balwinder Singh Rana:

As I said, the intermediaries had requested us to hold on to our application which we are doing at the moment. However, if he comes back again, starts the same thing again as he was doing before, he will leave us no choice to make our application. However, we are watching very closely. I entirely agree with the Professor, that we have to discover those traditions again. Because I think maybe the EDL has come as a welcome call for us in a way. That we had forgotten how united our communities were, and we need to rediscover that unity again and make sure we don’t let these people divide and rule.

Satnam Rana (host):

Interesting thoughts indeed. Balwinder Singh Rana thank you for joining us, Professor Gurharpal Singh thank you very for joining us as well.

And, that goes out back to you then. Interesting discussion there amongst the Professor and Balwinder Singh Rana from ‘Sikhs Against EDL’. To what extend then do you think, lets move this on now – to what extent do you think us as a British Asian community, so communities coming together as a community okay. Lets not be foolish about this – we know that we all exist in our separate cultural groups and our separate religious groups. Is this a wake up call – a person like Guramit Singh, is it a wake up call, is it a wake up call that collectively we came together and excommunicated him from the wider British Asian community. Can we do that as human beings? Do we have the right to do that in a democratic society? I don’t know – who’s role is it to do it? I’d like you to get in touch with me tonight. Text BBC WM on 81333, start your message with WM. You can also e-mail midlandsmasala@bbc.co.uk and you can call BBC WM on 08453-00-9956.

Satnam Rana (host):

Big question we’re asking – should the West Midlands leader of the English Defence League who happens to be a British Asian and a Sikh, be excommunicated from the wider British Asian community? That’s what we’re asking, do get in touch with your thoughts.

Satnam Rana (host):

A little later on we’re going to be speaking to someone who has been excommunicated from their faith group, finding out the impact on their lives and how its made them feel as well. We’ve also got a Rev. coming in to talk about excommunication from the Christian faith.

But first lets go over the telephones because we’ve got a call from Karandeep in Redbridge near London. Hi Karandeep.

Karandeep (caller from Redbridge):

Hi there.

Satnam Rana (host):

I take it that you’re listening to this on the internet then are you?

Karandeep (caller from Redbridge):

Yeah that’s right.

Satnam Rana (host):

Good to know, good to know. What do you think then? You’ve called in about this question we’re posing about Guramit Singh and whether he should be excommunicated from not only just the Sikh community but the wider British Asian community?

Karandeep (caller from Redbridge):

Yes. Firstly I just want to start by saying a big thank you to Balwinder Rana but also the Professor for what they said today. I think that they really touched on a note with me about you know, standing up to these sorts of people who spread hatred in our communities.

I’d like to quickly reference back to the documentary, the programme done by your colleague at the BBC, the Steve Dyson report. It was quite interesting because – I heard that earlier in the week as well. Guramit Singh said that ‘its because of the police they get violent at their demonstrations. Like I said, I’m from Redbridge and only yesterday three Asian men were attacked by the EDL when there was no police presence. Two of them went to hospital, and one of them wasn’t even Muslim. So, we have to remember as British Asians that this EDL phenomena doesn’t only apply to the Muslims but it applies to the entire Asian community. Its been the British strategy for hundreds of years to go into countries, divide and rule. Its the same thing here today where they are isolating the Muslim community and they’re making us fight amongst each other.

On the topic of excommunication, I think that we should as a community shun anyone who spreads hatred of any sort whether its based on race, whether its based on religion, whether its based on anything. I think that – you know, we should take care of each other. At the end of the day, we’re all humans, we’re all one people. We might have different ideas, different views on the issues of today but by marching up and down the street – attacking each others sacred places of worship, attacking each other we’re doing nothing apart from fostering hatred which is in itself a preliminary to violence.

Satnam Rana (host):

Karandeep, thank you very much for picking up the phone and sharing your views with us. I really hope that spurs other people who are listening in to the show to also pick up the phone and share their thoughts with us as well on this. It’s a very important question and I think its one that should be discussed openly on programmes like this. Really appreciate you doing that Karandeep – thank you.

So what do you think guys? Get in touch with us right now, you can call on 08453-0099-56, you can text BBC WM at on 81333 – to what extend do you feel that Guramit Singh, the leader of the EDL here in the West Midlands should be excommunicated from the Sikh community and the wider British Asian community? And also, is it about time we stopped existing in our individual cultural and religious groups and came together collectively – like our forefathers did when the National Front and the BNP were around as well.

Satnam Rana (host):

That’s what the programme is about, its also tonight about discussing a very difficult subject which I think is important to discuss on an open forum like this show. And the question I’m really asking is – well a couple of things. Should Guramit Singh, who is the West Midlands leader for the English Defence League be excommunicated from the Sikh community but not just the Sikh community, what about the wider British Asian community?

Is it about time that we all united to oppose the likes of the EDL. After all, maybe we’ve become a bit complacent as we’ve all assimilated in our societies and communities, where we live and we live and we kind of live in our cultural bubbles and our religious bubbles. Is this a wake up call? I want you to get in touch with me tonight and really honestly give me your comments on it. If you don’t want to mention your name on air you don’t have to, we can change that – no problem at all.

Satnam Rana (host):

Now, just before the travel news we found out what excommunication actually means. Its, quite frankly you can be excommunicated from your religion and there was also discussion by Gurharpal Singh from the University of Birmingham, Professor Sahib saying that also from your sort of community – a cultural ostracization and excommunication. What sort if impact does it have when you do actually get thrown out of your religion?

My next two guests know all too well and they’ll be shedding light on this. I’m joined on the telephone by Jerry Steppy who was excommunicated from his Catholic faith when he chose to marry a female divorcee and in the studio sitting opposite me is Birmingham based Rev. Chris Stout who regularly meets people who have been thrown out of Churches and effectively has his own Church. And basically, serves people from all across the UK who’ve been been told they no longer belong to Christianity.

We’ll be coming to Rev. Chris Stout in a moment but first to Jerry Steppy. Good evening and thank you for joining us on Midlands Masala – what’s your story?

Jerry Steppy:

Yes, Hello. I and my wife worked together and she was separated from her husband at that time and basically started going out and we wanted to get married. So, because she was already married she had to get divorced and we approached the parish priest to get married we were told that we couldn’t, because she had been divorced. And so, we had to go through a process of annulment of her first marriage. Which was sent to Rome, came back to us and they decided that [not understandable] hadn’t been the cause of her initial breakup so therefore, they were happy to annul that marriage. We could then get married in a Catholic Church and I could go back and receive [not understandable] excommunicated from previously.

Satnam Rana (host):

Oh, so there was actually a u-turn on the decision?

Jerry Steppy:

Yes.

Satnam Rana (host):

Right, okay. But the point at which you were excommunicated, how did that make you feel?

Jerry Steppy:

Well, really quite low and the fact that I’d been brought up in a Catholic faith. I’d attended Catholic school, I attended Church every week. Suddenly leaved everything I’d been taught. [not understandable] knowledge of my faith. I never stopped going to Church, even you know when the fact I was married before I got our marriage blessed. And, the support I received from [not understandable] and her family in order for us to have our marriage blessed, its the only way I could have got back to where I am now.

Satnam Rana (host):

Can you tell me therefore, this is very much centred around a chap in the West Midlands who calls himself the EDL leader for the West Midlands. He’s Sikh British Asian and we’re very much tonight talking about excommunicating him and whether he should be excommunicated from the Sikh religion and the wider British Asian community. And I mean obviously your case is completely different, it was based around marrying a divorcee.

But I’m just trying to ascertain what sort of impact it does have on peoples lives. Can for example – in your case it was the Vatican but who has the authority? Can a community have the authority to therefore excommunicate a member of society from the larger sort of cultural and religious group?

Jerry Steppy:

Well, my understanding is the teachings of the religion which they belong. And, you know if he’s done something that you know contravenes the laws of that religion then they’re within the right I suppose to excommunicate but there’s also, there must be a process for that to be overturned like there was in my case.

Satnam Rana (host):

Interesting stuff. Thank you very much Jerry for joining us and sharing your story with us. I’m going to come now to Rev. Chris Stout who is a priest based here in Birmingham and effectively your congregation are all excommunicated from the mainstream religious faith, yeah?

Rev. Chris Stout:

Sort of, I came to Birmingham seven years ago to found a Church for people who don’t like Church.

Satnam Rana (host):

What does that mean?

Rev. Chris Stout:

And what I mean by that is that there’s such a breadth of Christianity in Britain obviously but quite often the Church is very very very rigid on lots of different things like belief, faith or practice and each sort of bit of Christianity does things differently.

My congregation is made up of all sorts of people. There’s quite a lot of gay and lesbian people, there’s a lot of people that just don’t necessarily believe all the teachings that they would be expected to in other Churches. It may be that they just really like the freedom of worship or they like the community that we’ve actually created.

Satnam Rana (host):

But should you be able to pick and choose if religion has certain rules and stipulations, then surely it’s not for people to pick and choose, you either adhere to it or you don’t?

Rev. Chris Stout:

Well, I think that particularly when we’re looking at faith, there’s such a broad experience and I don’t think it matters which great religions of the world you’re looking at, different people do different bits. Different people will actually engage with different aspects and different types of worship. I think what I’m sort of saying is sort of within Christianity there’s huge tradition. And what I’ve sort of picked up along the way, is the people sort of who are like the non conformers of those people.

So, pick and choose – I would actually see it as following your conscience to be perfectly honest Satnam. I think for many people what they need to do is actually say ‘what is real for me?’ and if I’m sitting somewhere and this isn’t feeding me spiritually, this isn’t who I need to be, then you know – going to a Church and pretending isn’t actually going to get anywhere.

Satnam Rana (host):

Can the same rule apply then to other religions. Because, for example in this case with Guramit Singh we’re asking the question – can he be excommunicated from the Sikh religion, in the first place he’s not actually a baptised Sikh so he probably can’t be technically. Although, there is the Sikh community, the wider cultural definition of Sikh as a community.

Rev. Chris Stout:

I think that what I’d say, I really ask myself – why would I asked someone to leave my Church? Because I think that’s a really important thing and I think for me its about if somebody actually did something to damage the people, make it an unsafe place, make it so that somehow the community was damaged – I would ask them to leave.

Because otherwise what we’re not doing is we’re not maintaining a safe space. So, I think in this case if Guramit is creating an unsafe space for people – then perhaps it is perfectly legitimate for the community to say ‘well actually, we don’t like what you’re doing and actually we don’t see you as part of who we are’.

Satnam Rana (host):

So, but doesn’t this then sort of open a can of worms for all sorts of people in society to be kicked out of their sort if, I guess their safe spheres of existence?

Rev. Chris Stout:

Of course. And I mean, one of the things as a person of faith, my job is to continually look for God. Its not to sit there and go “you know actually, I’ve learned this, I’ve done this, I’ve studied theology therefore I no longer have to look for God, I no longer have to listen for God, I no longer have to see and learn about God.” And so for me there’s something about we always need to be moving out of our comfort zones.

It’s quite funny I was reflecting on the EDL earlier. I was part of a protest that was done in Birmingham City Centre not very long ago which was supporting the Palestinians. We actually had a twenty minute prayer vigil, in the middle of the city centre, in the middle of the day. There was quite a lot of mixed colours, there was quite a lot of people there to pray and to support and the EDL came and tried to sort of break it up and screamed and got really quite aggressive with us.

I would also say as a Gay man, the EDL don’t like me either! And I think one of the things I would challenge all communities on is that perhaps what we need to do is also all join together. Part of what we really need to do is go ‘you know bigotry is bigotry and its not okay’.

Satnam Rana (host):

Well I love the way this is developing because it started off ‘should he [Guramit Singh] be excommunicated from the Sikh community and then to the wider Asian community’ and then the good Professor and Balwinder Singh Rana said that perhaps this is a wake up call for all of the Asian communities to come together and stand united. But you’re saying, actually society should come together – everyone regardless.

Rev. Chris Stout:

Completely! I mean bigotry is just wrong – it’s as simple as that. One thing that I think we all need to do and it doesn’t matter who we are, is we need to look into ourselves and and actually see where we are bigots. You know, its very easy to point the finger at other people and say ‘you know, your wrong, your bad – go’. And I think there’s sometimes when we might have to do that but look at our own prejudices. We also have to look at who we are uncomfortable with and maybe what we need to do is actually some listening and actually some learning about each other. Because its when we learn about each other that we actually stop becoming the other.

Satnam Rana (host):

Now that’s a really interesting point. I want to share something that’s popped up on our Facebook wall and Daniel known as Eddy has commented on a question I was asking ‘whether this chap should be excommunicated from the Sikh community and the wider British Asian community’. He says: “to be honest does this question not stir up hatred and cause issues within the community? Give intolerant groups a platform and give them a voice. I’m actually very disappointed that you’re asking such a question – shame on WM”.

Now, I’m happy to share that because I’m not ashamed about asking this question and I think its a very important question to ask. It means that we openly debate what some people are deeming to be a problem for the Sikh community and the wider community as well, surely.

Rev. Chris Stout:

I also think that we have to name the damage. I think that’s really important. I think vilifying individuals does nothing. What we need to say is – by actually being an Asian face to the EDL, that legitimises them in a way that is not appropriate and by doing that it is damaging the community.

I think that’s the important thing to say. I think we need to name what the damage is. I think we need to name.

Satnam Rana (host):

But it brings a whole community into disrepute, does it not? The majority are assimilated and live in the UK practising their faith, practising their professions and living their lives paying into the economy.

Rev. Chris Stout:

Completely. And that’s what I’m saying, we need to name that this is damaging – what the EDL do. And I think its really important to say the EDL have a point, they have the wrong point. I think what they are, they’re many people who feel disenfranchised by society, just like many minority groups do. But what we need to do is be joining together and actually tackling the establishment and saying ‘why is it that we don’t have politicians that look like us? why don’t we have politicians who are actually talking about who we are and voicing our concerns?’. And I think what the EDL do, is they speak for a minority of people who are incredibly disenfranchised. And I think that’s a really important thing to say – the rage comes from somewhere, but the problem is its a misdirected rage. What we need to be doing is we should all be standing together and and saying ‘you know, actually – we need to change society because it doesn’t work for us’.

Satnam Rana (host):

Interesting interesting thoughts there. Just finally – your Church which does work with people who feel that they have been rejected by maybe a mainstream Church elsewhere. Effectively, what we’re saying is, what we’re doing is sending Guramit Singh to perhaps your way [laughter] – in a sense where do you draw the line because there’s very thin line then isn’t it?

Rev. Chris Stout:

There’s very thin lines and a lot of this is really really great. I mean, its interesting – we’re actually opening a community cafe two minutes walk from here in fletchers walk in three weeks time. Its vegetarian and vegan – the reason we’re doing that is so that we can welcome everybody. So here is no problem with dietary requirements, there’s no problems with with anything and everyone will be able to come and eat, and eat nice cheap wholesome veggie food. But the whole point is sort of like we need to welcome people but we also need to tell them that what they’re doing isn’t okay. And I think that’s where we get to here with this. We need to say to Guramit – “you know this is how you’re damaging, this is what you’re doing and by legitimising something which isn’t legitimate – what you’re doing is you’re actually hurting all of us.”

Satnam Rana (host):

Well, I think that point has been put across extremely well and with great power and prowess this evening through all of guests who have been on air talking about it and thank you very much indeed rev. and contributing to our discussion here today on Midlands Masala tonight.

Rev. Chris Stout:

No problem, thank you.